典藏书目

Jimo Qiujiang
2002-12-15 18:58:20
Sanqisheng's last paragraph left me speechless; those people's reactions were indeed within reason yet unexpected.

Farrell
2002-12-15 19:11:21
Sanqisheng:
I really don't have the patience to discuss the jurisprudential relationship between procedural justice and substantive justice with you anymore.
Fortunately, there are many intellectual masters in this tea house, including some who specialize in jurisprudence.
You should discuss it with them!
The victor becomes king, the loser becomes a bandit.
China has walked this path for thousands of years.
It is just that they cannot clarify the relationship between procedural justice and substantive justice.
You are still using the outdated "a priori" thought from traditional Chinese culture!
Alas, it is not worth discussing.

Farrell
2002-12-15 19:16:08
Furthermore,
you seem unclear about the connotation of the word "justice" I mentioned here.
I won't debate this issue with you.
Information asymmetry.

Jimo Qiujiang
2002-12-15 19:18:26
Facts speak louder than words. Does Sanqisheng need to argue with you?

Farrell
2002-12-15 19:26:28
Sanqi: Regarding the medical license issue you look down upon, let me tell you something, perhaps you will understand that procedural justice is very important.
After the establishment of the Miranda principle,
the crime-solving rate in the United States dropped for a period of time,
and the police complained significantly.
Congress discussed whether to abolish this principle.
At this time, a Supreme Court Justice spoke up:
The harm caused by letting go of two criminals is absolutely less than the harm caused by abusing judicial or administrative power on society.
Regarding obtaining a medical license,
it might bury a few "geniuses",
but it can maximize the guarantee of doctors' quality.
Perhaps there are unreasonable aspects to it,
but it can only be improved step by step.
We are ultimately not gods.
There is no best, only better.
Otherwise, what should we do? Who decides who is a qualified doctor? The Health Bureau Director?

Stoneboy
2002-12-15 21:03:52
Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) practitioners are all philosophers.

Sanqisheng
2002-12-15 23:52:33
Do you really think the current system is better? Including diseases that can clearly be treated but are defined as untreatable by current medical procedures?
Let me show you the sigh of a legitimate doctor:
Refreshing! Let us drink a large cup to celebrate!
Alas! It is a pity that in the hospital, to protect myself, I can only watch such patients die!
This post was published by Cui Guangheng on December 15, 2002, at 21:49:40 in the Lequ Garden "Soul of TCM - Medical Case Discussion".
What kind of procedure is this?

Sanqisheng
2002-12-16 13:35:54
Another strange phenomenon.
Today at noon, the patient's daughter called, saying that the patient went to defecate on his own in the morning, excreting a lot of loose stools, yellow in color, and even his previous hemorrhoids were cured.
He ate one jar of eight-treasure porridge and two small steamed buns. His complexion was more normal than yesterday. He said walking felt comfortable, but he still felt weak, which is the normal state after recovering from a severe illness.
The hospital authorities have stopped asking much about the patient's matter, and most family members have dispersed. Some called to insist that the hospital continue observation. The patient's daughter found the doctor and asked how to explain that the condition improved after stopping Western medicine (the doctor knew Traditional Chinese Medicine was used, had seen the prescription, and said afterwards that they were also common blood-invigorating and stasis-resolving herbs). The doctor answered "I don't know." Asked if he wanted to learn more, he replied that he didn't want to, and stated: We are Western doctors; we don't care about this.
It is understandable for a doctor not to care about the patient, but having no interest in the disease and treatment itself is somewhat surprising. No wonder the medical level is so poor. I believe this should be a universal phenomenon, not just an individual matter for a certain Western doctor.
By the way, the patient's daughter also said that two patients died in the neighboring ward yesterday. Western doctors resuscitated them all night. Their conditions were the same as her father's. It seems the Western doctors' prophecy that they wouldn't make it through tonight came true again on the same cold night.

Mama Huhu
2002-12-16 13:54:46
Ms. Xiao Yang Feifang started doing health care work for her son since he was three years old. To be honest, I am the same. Shouldn't this be considered illegal medical practice? Because we are not doctors, although the patients are our relatives.
The cases cited by Sanqisheng are mostly those sentenced to death with reprieve. If extending their lives is judged as illegal medical practice for Sanqisheng?
From Sanqisheng's words, one can see his obsession with Traditional Chinese Medicine. One day, he will become everyone's [doctor]. Obviously, he is not currently charging money for medical practice.
I also offer a prescription: Put rotten oranges in a bottle for later use. For fire or scald injuries, apply the rotten orange water multiple times; it can cure general burns. I think this isn't illegal medical practice, is it?

Mushui Linfeng
2002-12-16 14:11:20
A careless remark gives villains a handle; ten years of cultivation destroyed in an instant~
Hehe~ Debating with ignorant people who speak recklessly is worse than not speaking at all~ How can the flaws of the system be exhausted in one word?

Xiaoyicc
2002-12-16 15:12:40
Why can't I enter the Folk Medicine Research Association website?

Sanqisheng
2002-12-16 15:52:23
The Folk Medicine Research Association has changed its address to:
http://www.1shop.com.cn/cgi-bin/bbs/bbs.cgi?id=200211151644

Sanqisheng
2002-12-16 22:15:45
Someone seemed to say that Traditional Chinese Medicine cannot perform emergency rescue. Why is no one speaking now?

Aiguozei
2002-12-16 22:17:21
Hehe, take a look. Saving a human life is always a good thing. Happy for the patient, congratulations to Sanqisheng.

Sanqisheng
2002-12-16 22:34:50
Even a thief loves the country, rare indeed. Much better than those traitors wearing human skin, and they won't cause death. Truly a rare good person. Thank you for your encouragement.

Huxiao Er Guo De Zidan
2002-12-16 22:38:59
Sanqi, I have always doubted the authenticity of your case study :)

Sanqisheng
2002-12-17 0:02:43
Zidan, it is truly a misfortune for the people that someone like you studies medicine.

Sanqisheng
2002-12-17 0:24:43
By the way, I forgot one thing. The cost for that hospital's acute myocardial infarction patient from rescue to death was about ten thousand yuan. The Traditional Chinese Medicine decoction I prescribed for the patient was about seven yuan per dose (the price might be high), and it took less than three doses from emergency rescue to recovery. Everyone might as well calculate carefully the account between life and death; how many times did the effect and cost differ?

Zuo Dao
2002-12-17 12:29:44
Hehe, if effective, then effective; if ineffective, then ineffective. Everyone can explore the reasons deeply. Advertising for oneself is probably inappropriate.

Mumu Leguan
2002-12-16 22:11:25.0
I think Mr. Sanqi deserves affirmation. However, in the current environment, you might face greater risks. I would like to ask Mr. Sanqi for his view on "inversion of burden of proof."
If you violate the procedure, how will you prove you are not wrong when the time comes? If you can prove you are not wrong, it shows you didn't violate the procedure either. How to explain this?

Sanqisheng
2002-12-17 11:39:54.0
I don't quite understand "inversion of burden of proof." Please, Brother Leguan, explain in detail.

Mumu Leguan
2002-12-17 12:02:14.0
It refers to the inversion of burden of proof in handling medical disputes.
On April 1, 2002, the "Provisions of the Supreme People's Court on Several Issues Concerning Evidence in Civil Litigation" began to be implemented. According to the "Provisions," "In tort lawsuits arising from medical behavior, the medical institution shall bear the burden of proof regarding the non-existence of a causal relationship between the medical behavior and the damage result, and the non-existence of medical fault."
A doctor expressed his concern about hospitals bearing the burden of proof using the fable of the Farmer and the Snake.
This ancient story says that on a freezing winter day, a farmer saw a frozen snake. Out of kindness, he put the snake into his bosom to save it. As a result, after the snake revived, it bit the farmer on the chest, causing the farmer's death.
Why did the snake bite the farmer? Not because of ingratitude as commonly understood, but because during the farmer's process of rewarming the snake, the temperature rose too quickly, causing the snake to feel harmed, so it defended itself. Because the snake was frozen due to hibernation, the farmer interfered with the snake's normal physiological activity process. Inappropriate heating caused harm to its body. If the farmer had to prove it himself, he would have to admit the suspicion of heating too fast and acknowledge that his behavior was at fault.
Therefore, the farmer must be punished.

Sanqisheng
2002-12-17 14:31:12.0)
This question is perplexing like a ring without end, but upon careful consideration, this regulation a priori exempts all responsibilities for errors occurring in the medical process. That is to say, regardless of the treatment outcome, patients can only leave things to fate. Regardless of treatment effectiveness, whether the method is appropriate, or the final result, the hospital's actions do not bear legal responsibility, even if caused by subjective error.
For doctors, as long as they conform to general treatment norms, any consequences brought to the patient are irrelevant, because no consequence affects the hospital's normal charging. And as long as they do not violate norms, the treatment methods adopted by doctors are justified, even if fatal to the patient.
This makes it easy to understand why this sensible doctor made such a sigh after seeing the above treatment process: Refreshing! Let us drink a large cup to celebrate! Alas! It is a pity that in the hospital, to protect myself, I can only watch such patients die!
Objectively speaking, a doctor is merely a tiny link in the huge medical system, and the work of each link has long been stipulated. The doctor's responsibility is to strictly follow the regulations. Therefore, for doctors, the most important thing is not to violate regulations. As for what consequences the stipulated methods will bring to patients, that is not what they care about. This is the medical procedure prepared for patients by the current medical system. As for how the procedure results, that depends solely on the understanding of modern medicine.
Tragically, modern medicine has not yet found the best treatment method for diseases, yet blindly arrogantly occupies the dominant position in healthcare and ignorantly rejects other effective medical treatment methods. A medical system and treatment procedure established on their understanding is undoubtedly a disaster for patients.

Dan Zhuye
2002-12-17 14:35:53
Sanqisheng, you are now a celebrity. You should introduce yourself, such as which hospital or school you are from. Perhaps students like us could learn from you, hehe.

Siwei
2002-12-17 14:56:12.0
It is estimated that they won't be wrong... I estimate they definitely made a mistake, while you are just unclear.
What is diagnosis, what is "disease"? The diagnosis of a "disease" contains the essence of the disease and basically determines its prognosis and outcome.
What is "myocardial infarction"? If "myocardial infarction" is treated with your treatment method, except for extremely mild cases, won't it also lead to disability? — Then catching you for "illegal medical practice" would not be good.
For the elderly's illness, one must pay attention to whether their bowel movements are smooth, especially for cases with "unclean" diet and abdominal distension.
Acute gastroenteritis combined with toxicological symptoms can well explain many symptoms and outcomes in the filed case. (Endotoxins easily cause chills and dyspnea, and the elderly may also have the characteristic of low body temperature)

Mumu Leguan
2002-12-16 22:11:25.0
I think Mr. Sanqi deserves affirmation. However, in the current environment, you might face greater risks. I would like to ask Mr. Sanqi for his view on "inversion of burden of proof."
If you violate the procedure, how will you prove you are not wrong when the time comes? If you can prove you are not wrong, it shows you didn't violate the procedure either. How to explain this?
The correctness of medical methods is judged by whether they can rescue the patient's life. My method definitely violated the procedure, but my method rescued a patient whom the procedure deemed unrescuable. This shows I am not wrong. If I am not wrong, then there is only one possibility left: the procedure is wrong.
When the procedure makes a mistake, the catastrophic consequences brought about are not just a matter for one or two people. The current question is: Can justice still be maintained for an unreasonable procedure?

Sanqisheng
2002-12-17 15:38:51.0
Siwei, don't think you have any special superiority. Your understanding merely represents a link in the procedure. That is to say, within the procedure, you do not possess any particularity. Doctors who, like you, are also links in the procedure certainly understand what you understand. Your common sense is their common sense; this is a necessary quality for being a link in the procedure. What I want to point out is the error of your entire procedure. This error cannot be understood by the knowledge structure of you as an internal link of the procedure. If you could all understand it, such an error would not exist.
Additionally, let me tell you an experience. The acute myocardial infarction patients you successfully resuscitated mostly had conditions that were not very severe. After the pathogenic qi left the heart, it recovered automatically. Although your rescue hindered the recovery of the condition to some extent, it did not reach a fatal degree. It was not your rescue that played a positive role. The patient I rescued would inevitably worsen and definitely be fatal under your rescue procedure. Therefore, Western doctors whose understanding is close to yours would say, based on their experience, it is probably difficult to get through the night. That is to say, if it were you, you would draw the same conclusion, because you graduated from the same place, both possessing legal physician qualifications. Even if you are superior, you won't be superior by much. Unless you change the theory to understand.
By the way, your medicine has no way to change some specific symptoms. For example, you want to raise blood pressure, but the blood pressure is 50-80; you give the patient oxygen, but the patient feels unable to breathe; and for example, the constipation you mentioned, your laxatives are usually ineffective, and diuretics are the same. If you are truly interested in disease and treatment, I hope you carefully study the reasons among them. I have already introduced the treatment methods without reservation. If you only care about whether your thinking conforms to the procedure, then it is better for you to learn from the doctors in that hospital and remain silent.

Sanqisheng
2002-12-18 17:51:37
The patient was discharged today at noon. Going up five floors at home, his heartbeat felt slightly accelerated, showing that he has not fully recovered and still needs recuperation. The actual situation ends here.

Appendix III: Speaking from Personal Experience
Note: This post is unfinished; editing this book, the original post continues. The address of this original post is:
http://37tcm.net/forum/viewthread.php?tid=14711&fpage=1

Abuse of cold and cool natured medicines mistakenly treating colds, turning the Chinese people into Sick Men of East Asia!! Folk Traditional Chinese Medicine sincerely invites广大 victims to speak from personal experience!!!